Comments on: Getting along with other learners & conclusions of Thai mission http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/ Unconventional language hacking tips from Benny the Irish polyglot; travelling the world to learn languages to fluency and beyond! Wed, 08 Sep 2010 20:18:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Jon http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5907 Jon Tue, 27 Apr 2010 03:11:11 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5907 Benny,<br><br>I think the main issue with expats in Thailand in jealous - many what to be able to speak/read/write Thai but for whatever reasons - usually laziness - they don't get round to it so to see a new arrival making progress will frustrate.<br><br>I did counter one your early comments claiming you could read Thai early on, but it was only on a technicality (knowing the alphabet isn't fluency in my book) and I'm impressed with your video (and progress) despite working like a dog during the day in Bangkok. Benny,

I think the main issue with expats in Thailand in jealous – many what to be able to speak/read/write Thai but for whatever reasons – usually laziness – they don't get round to it so to see a new arrival making progress will frustrate.

I did counter one your early comments claiming you could read Thai early on, but it was only on a technicality (knowing the alphabet isn't fluency in my book) and I'm impressed with your video (and progress) despite working like a dog during the day in Bangkok.

]]> By: Jean-Paul Setlak http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5332 Jean-Paul Setlak Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:28:16 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5332 The "jump in the water first" approach can also lead you to being functionally fluent within the culture - i.e. you can eat, buy and greet - but you cannot really express yourself in or understand more elaborate conversations. It is satisfying and reinforcing but only as a beginning. <br>I too have great confidence in my linguistic abilities, but I like to load my rifle before going hunting: with phonetics and essential syntax. This has led to fluency in English (I am French-born), Mandarin and Punjabi (and a few others) for me. The “jump in the water first” approach can also lead you to being functionally fluent within the culture – i.e. you can eat, buy and greet – but you cannot really express yourself in or understand more elaborate conversations. It is satisfying and reinforcing but only as a beginning.
I too have great confidence in my linguistic abilities, but I like to load my rifle before going hunting: with phonetics and essential syntax. This has led to fluency in English (I am French-born), Mandarin and Punjabi (and a few others) for me.

]]> By: Kris. http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5256 Kris. Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:26:50 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5256 What you say on the blog is indeed much more realistic than what you told us on the forum. The problem with having (too) high ambitions is that people don't take you seriously. This happens both in real life and on a forum.<br><br>Another problem is that people don't like to hear that all the hard work they have been doing to reach a certain level can be done with almost no effort in a very short time - that just discourages people. Positivism and motivation are essential in efficient language study, but when communicating with fellow students it's important to not come to close to the borders of what is realistically possible. There are other and better ways to motivate other people (like giving compliments).<br><br>A forum is probably not the best medium for studying languages. Very often (like now) I am also tempted to join in on useless discussions that are pulling away the attention from the actual language study.<br><br>Goodluck with your language study. Hope you'll be back in Thailand someday. What you say on the blog is indeed much more realistic than what you told us on the forum. The problem with having (too) high ambitions is that people don't take you seriously. This happens both in real life and on a forum.

Another problem is that people don't like to hear that all the hard work they have been doing to reach a certain level can be done with almost no effort in a very short time – that just discourages people. Positivism and motivation are essential in efficient language study, but when communicating with fellow students it's important to not come to close to the borders of what is realistically possible. There are other and better ways to motivate other people (like giving compliments).

A forum is probably not the best medium for studying languages. Very often (like now) I am also tempted to join in on useless discussions that are pulling away the attention from the actual language study.

Goodluck with your language study. Hope you'll be back in Thailand someday.

]]> By: Erica http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5257 Erica Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:24:47 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5257 @Benny I am really enjoying learning Esperanto so far.. it is easy so far and I'm glad to have finally started my language journey. :) I'll have to look at your link for getting over being introverted.. tho I don't wish to be extroverted per se.. more like an in-between area as I enjoy my introversion some of the time :D<br><br>@Raphael You are definitely farther than me in Esperanto as I had to try to translate what you wrote lol... but I think you're asking where/with what I am learning Esperanto.. right now I am on LiveMocha which I really like so far.. but after I get through their beginning lessons I will go to where Benny talked about.. <a href="http://Learnu.net" rel="nofollow">Learnu.net</a> :) @Benny I am really enjoying learning Esperanto so far.. it is easy so far and I'm glad to have finally started my language journey. :) I'll have to look at your link for getting over being introverted.. tho I don't wish to be extroverted per se.. more like an in-between area as I enjoy my introversion some of the time :D

@Raphael You are definitely farther than me in Esperanto as I had to try to translate what you wrote lol… but I think you're asking where/with what I am learning Esperanto.. right now I am on LiveMocha which I really like so far.. but after I get through their beginning lessons I will go to where Benny talked about.. Learnu.net :)

]]> By: Benny the Irish polyglot http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5254 Benny the Irish polyglot Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:35:48 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5254 Hi Kris,<br>I was indeed hoping to reach lower intermediate level, and voiced that on the blog and the thai visa forum. However, my huge workload due to financial problems meant that I could only reach the basic level <b>that I had initially mentioned on the blog itself</b>. I stuck to my goals as mentioned on the blog other than not reading aloud to a native.<br>I still don't get the cynicism from the forum, just because I was being ambitious... Considering the drastically little amount of time I put into Thai, if someone was only half-committed during the same or less of a period they could EASILY reach lower intermediate level. Hi Kris,
I was indeed hoping to reach lower intermediate level, and voiced that on the blog and the thai visa forum. However, my huge workload due to financial problems meant that I could only reach the basic level that I had initially mentioned on the blog itself. I stuck to my goals as mentioned on the blog other than not reading aloud to a native.
I still don't get the cynicism from the forum, just because I was being ambitious… Considering the drastically little amount of time I put into Thai, if someone was only half-committed during the same or less of a period they could EASILY reach lower intermediate level.

]]> By: Kris. http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5252 Kris. Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:43:30 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5252 Dear Benny,<br><br>This is what you said on the Thaivisa forum:<br><br> "I plan to be able to spontaneously read aloud ANY TEXT (that I've never seen before, e.g. newspaper article) by the end of the 8 weeks (in such a way that it's understood well) and have some level of conversation (approximately lower intermediate). I'm not aiming for parrot-level with just a store of words and phrases I can repeat; I want to actually communicate".<br><br>All negativism started after this claim. I think people were right to criticize you because in the end it appears that you can't read and the sentences or words you can speak are in fact parrot-level, as if they come from a guidebook about Thailand.<br><br>You are very far from lower intermediate level. Dear Benny,

This is what you said on the Thaivisa forum:

“I plan to be able to spontaneously read aloud ANY TEXT (that I've never seen before, e.g. newspaper article) by the end of the 8 weeks (in such a way that it's understood well) and have some level of conversation (approximately lower intermediate). I'm not aiming for parrot-level with just a store of words and phrases I can repeat; I want to actually communicate”.

All negativism started after this claim. I think people were right to criticize you because in the end it appears that you can't read and the sentences or words you can speak are in fact parrot-level, as if they come from a guidebook about Thailand.

You are very far from lower intermediate level.

]]> By: Language enthusiast http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5246 Language enthusiast Wed, 10 Mar 2010 09:59:23 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5246 Please make your next language Mandarin! I'd like to hear how well you can master pronouncing the tones within 2-3 months : ) Please make your next language Mandarin! I'd like to hear how well you can master pronouncing the tones within 2-3 months : )

]]> By: Rachel http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5245 Rachel Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:45:17 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5245 Benny, in what way are other learners discouraging? I haven't had that experience with the languages I have studied, so not sure in what way. Maybe this is a male/female thing. Are men competitive with you, or do you get it from both genders? I actually have found native speakers more discouraging when at the beginner levels in languages. They will usually just switch to English. When last in France the biggest complaint from my classmates (all upper intermediate learners) was that locals keep switching to English with them and they don't get to speak the language they are learning. This wasn't happening to me (maybe because I had put a lot of emphasis on nailing the pronunciation in French), but they found it to be the most discouraging. On the other hand, we were all very supportive of each other, only speaking to each other in French. They had all studied longer than me, but were very encouraging of me pushing myself to a higher level. Maybe I experienced just a tad bit of what you mention when in Taiwan. Students were constantly comparing themselves to each other. But in general, not my experience, so curious as to what specifically you are getting. Benny, in what way are other learners discouraging? I haven't had that experience with the languages I have studied, so not sure in what way. Maybe this is a male/female thing. Are men competitive with you, or do you get it from both genders? I actually have found native speakers more discouraging when at the beginner levels in languages. They will usually just switch to English. When last in France the biggest complaint from my classmates (all upper intermediate learners) was that locals keep switching to English with them and they don't get to speak the language they are learning. This wasn't happening to me (maybe because I had put a lot of emphasis on nailing the pronunciation in French), but they found it to be the most discouraging. On the other hand, we were all very supportive of each other, only speaking to each other in French. They had all studied longer than me, but were very encouraging of me pushing myself to a higher level. Maybe I experienced just a tad bit of what you mention when in Taiwan. Students were constantly comparing themselves to each other. But in general, not my experience, so curious as to what specifically you are getting.

]]> By: Benny the Irish polyglot http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5244 Benny the Irish polyglot Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:24:00 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5244 I am definitely going <b>east</b> from where I am right now... which is Ireland :P<br>Ain't I a tease?? :D<br>Language will be revealed next week! I am definitely going east from where I am right now… which is Ireland :P
Ain't I a tease?? :D
Language will be revealed next week!

]]> By: Benny the Irish polyglot http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5243 Benny the Irish polyglot Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:22:31 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5243 I think there is a middle ground between those more focused on theory and those who want to speak. As you say, speaking can happen even a few weeks into study :)<br>Good luck with your blog!! Glad I have sparked some interest in some quality blogs appearing out there! Hope you enjoy my Irish tips ;) I think there is a middle ground between those more focused on theory and those who want to speak. As you say, speaking can happen even a few weeks into study :)
Good luck with your blog!! Glad I have sparked some interest in some quality blogs appearing out there! Hope you enjoy my Irish tips ;)

]]> By: Benny the Irish polyglot http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5242 Benny the Irish polyglot Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:20:04 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5242 Aww shucks! Thanks for the compliment :)<br>I suppose Thailand was more of a spiritual linguistic journey for me than a practical one! Aww shucks! Thanks for the compliment :)
I suppose Thailand was more of a spiritual linguistic journey for me than a practical one!

]]> By: Benny the Irish polyglot http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5241 Benny the Irish polyglot Tue, 09 Mar 2010 18:18:55 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5241 That's a fascinating theory!! It makes sense - in Europe, speaking other languages is by no means a status symbol or even that impressive, so we just take it for granted and if you try then we'll help bring you up to the "status quo" :P<br>But it's rare for English speakers to master a second (or third...) language so maybe they feel you are threatening their position of glory and not worthy for a place on the podium...<br>If I felt that way I would keep all my language learning secrets to myself! :P But soon some of my readers will be overtaking me :) I actually think it's great!! That's a fascinating theory!! It makes sense – in Europe, speaking other languages is by no means a status symbol or even that impressive, so we just take it for granted and if you try then we'll help bring you up to the “status quo” :P
But it's rare for English speakers to master a second (or third…) language so maybe they feel you are threatening their position of glory and not worthy for a place on the podium…
If I felt that way I would keep all my language learning secrets to myself! :P But soon some of my readers will be overtaking me :) I actually think it's great!!

]]> By: Alejeather http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5239 Alejeather Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:17:21 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5239 Interesting comment about anglophone attitudes. My non-expert evaluation is that at least for Americans, speaking a second language is a status symbol, and that status can be maintained through being the only one around who speaks another language. We emphasize language learning difficulties to boast what we have accomplished and to discourage others from trying. It's silly, really, but I think this does happen. Interesting comment about anglophone attitudes. My non-expert evaluation is that at least for Americans, speaking a second language is a status symbol, and that status can be maintained through being the only one around who speaks another language. We emphasize language learning difficulties to boast what we have accomplished and to discourage others from trying. It's silly, really, but I think this does happen.

]]> By: Adam http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5238 Adam Tue, 09 Mar 2010 15:20:56 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5238 Another fantastic and insightful post. Great work, Benny!<br><br>I'd say the primary advantage to your approach is your attitude. I caught myself thinking that maybe this whole Thailand adventure had not actually been so much of a success, since you didn't really focus on the speaking so much, but then I started to think of how what happens to you is much less important than your reaction to it, and I'm now certain that no matter how your stint in Thailand turned out, if you're able to take away the positive from it (as you seem so aptly able to do) it's a success.<br><br>So it really doesn't matter if you didn't "master" Thai after only 8 weeks (I know I sure didn't). You're maintaining forward momentum and applying knowledge from the experience to your future endeavors.<br><br>I'm also certain that you'll eventually chose to embrace all the other language learners (as opposed to moving more towards avoidance), as your exemplary positive attitude will allow you to interact and learn from them without being negatively affected by any of their cynicism or negative criticism...and I feel like THAT was the biggest lesson to come out of Thailand.<br><br>Keep up the great work!<br>Adam Another fantastic and insightful post. Great work, Benny!

I'd say the primary advantage to your approach is your attitude. I caught myself thinking that maybe this whole Thailand adventure had not actually been so much of a success, since you didn't really focus on the speaking so much, but then I started to think of how what happens to you is much less important than your reaction to it, and I'm now certain that no matter how your stint in Thailand turned out, if you're able to take away the positive from it (as you seem so aptly able to do) it's a success.

So it really doesn't matter if you didn't “master” Thai after only 8 weeks (I know I sure didn't). You're maintaining forward momentum and applying knowledge from the experience to your future endeavors.

I'm also certain that you'll eventually chose to embrace all the other language learners (as opposed to moving more towards avoidance), as your exemplary positive attitude will allow you to interact and learn from them without being negatively affected by any of their cynicism or negative criticism…and I feel like THAT was the biggest lesson to come out of Thailand.

Keep up the great work!
Adam

]]> By: Randy http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5235 Randy Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:20:04 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5235 Me too! I'm hoping you're heading to an FSB country... Me too! I'm hoping you're heading to an FSB country…

]]> By: Gareth Murphy http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5234 Gareth Murphy Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:18:52 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5234 Great post Benny, it brought to mind the saying "All things are easy that are done willingly." which I've found to be completely true for ALL endeavors. If you're interested in something, go for it... don't be afraid of being a beginner! Too many adults are afraid of being beginners, stopping them from pursuing so many things that they'd love to do.<br><br>As for styles of learning, everybody's different... I think there's something to be learned from everyone, but the most important thing is to find methods that YOU personally enjoy. I love reading everything I can about an interest, I'm a real 'theory' guy, but I know I need to get out and just dive in if I really want to improve. With the internet as it is now, there really isn't any excuse for not speaking a couple of weeks into study, even if jetting off to Brazil isn't an option!<br><br>I'm looking forward to your tips on Irish, because even though I'm a fellow Irishman I couldn't even string a single sentence together as Gaeilge! I'm biting the bullet and designing my own blog on my language learning (Spanish & Esperanto) and other stuff that I plan on doing, which should be up over the next week or two... cheers for that 'start a blog' post, because if it wasn't for that I'd probably still be thinking 'I'd like to start a blog' years down the line!<br><br>Anyway, keep up the good work! Great post Benny, it brought to mind the saying “All things are easy that are done willingly.” which I've found to be completely true for ALL endeavors. If you're interested in something, go for it… don't be afraid of being a beginner! Too many adults are afraid of being beginners, stopping them from pursuing so many things that they'd love to do.

As for styles of learning, everybody's different… I think there's something to be learned from everyone, but the most important thing is to find methods that YOU personally enjoy. I love reading everything I can about an interest, I'm a real 'theory' guy, but I know I need to get out and just dive in if I really want to improve. With the internet as it is now, there really isn't any excuse for not speaking a couple of weeks into study, even if jetting off to Brazil isn't an option!

I'm looking forward to your tips on Irish, because even though I'm a fellow Irishman I couldn't even string a single sentence together as Gaeilge! I'm biting the bullet and designing my own blog on my language learning (Spanish & Esperanto) and other stuff that I plan on doing, which should be up over the next week or two… cheers for that 'start a blog' post, because if it wasn't for that I'd probably still be thinking 'I'd like to start a blog' years down the line!

Anyway, keep up the good work!

]]> By: Wouldeye http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5233 Wouldeye Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:11:57 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5233 Alright! What's the next language? I'm excited for something Eastern European again! Alright! What's the next language? I'm excited for something Eastern European again!

]]> By: Benny the Irish polyglot http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5231 Benny the Irish polyglot Tue, 09 Mar 2010 04:12:15 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5231 Glad you liked this post on a few levels :)<br>I think your solution is best; avoid the annoying expats and embrace the nice ones! Glad you liked this post on a few levels :)
I think your solution is best; avoid the annoying expats and embrace the nice ones!

]]> By: Benny the Irish polyglot http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5232 Benny the Irish polyglot Tue, 09 Mar 2010 04:10:55 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5232 I'm liking academic approaches to languages less and less the more I find out about the behind-the-scenes aspect of it :P<br>Great point about kids - I always say that myself! I'm liking academic approaches to languages less and less the more I find out about the behind-the-scenes aspect of it :P
Great point about kids – I always say that myself!

]]> By: Benny the Irish polyglot http://www.fluentin3months.com/end-of-thai-mission/comment-page-1/#comment-5230 Benny the Irish polyglot Tue, 09 Mar 2010 04:09:08 +0000 http://www.fluentin3months.com/?p=1722#comment-5230 Thanks for the comments :)<br>@Erica That's great to see how much you are enjoying my blog :) I'm really glad to see you choose Esperanto first! Since you'll master it so quickly it will make your second-second language MUCH EASIER and be worth the side investment :)<br>Someone once described me as the "Jamie Oliver of language learning" - I try to make it seem more exciting than dull linguists tend to make it :P That's because it is :D Learning a language has opened my doors up to so many adventures :)<br>You'll be happy to hear that even my current unmodified method is definitely not purely spoken. A lot of the time I do need to see a word written down before I can apply it to memory. I keep telling people that being introverted is something that they can <a href="http://www.fluentin3months.com/scared-to-meet-new-people/" rel="nofollow">learn to get over</a>, but even so, I'm going to try some modern learning techniques in the comfort of my home during the next mission, and hopefully help people who are still reluctant to get into speaking.<br>However, I'll continue to push people to try to speak :D I hope I succeed with you!!<br><br>@Raphaël Thanks for your comments! Laŭ mi, <a href="http://lernu.net" rel="nofollow">lernu.net</a> estas la plej bona ilo por lerni esperanton senpage ;) Thanks for the comments :)
@Erica That's great to see how much you are enjoying my blog :) I'm really glad to see you choose Esperanto first! Since you'll master it so quickly it will make your second-second language MUCH EASIER and be worth the side investment :)
Someone once described me as the “Jamie Oliver of language learning” – I try to make it seem more exciting than dull linguists tend to make it :P That's because it is :D Learning a language has opened my doors up to so many adventures :)
You'll be happy to hear that even my current unmodified method is definitely not purely spoken. A lot of the time I do need to see a word written down before I can apply it to memory. I keep telling people that being introverted is something that they can learn to get over, but even so, I'm going to try some modern learning techniques in the comfort of my home during the next mission, and hopefully help people who are still reluctant to get into speaking.
However, I'll continue to push people to try to speak :D I hope I succeed with you!!

@Raphaël Thanks for your comments! Laŭ mi, lernu.net estas la plej bona ilo por lerni esperanton senpage ;)

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