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As a Beginner in Japanese, Don’t Worry About the Formality

| 49 comments | Category: guest post

At a Shrine in Kawagoe

I’m quickly approaching my one month point in Japanese, and can give you some updates on how I’m doing there soon! In the mean time, I got this interesting guest post suggestion from William Peregoy who blogs over at Strategy Focus Success.

I’m quickly seeing that the scare tactics used on Japanese learners, like in every other language that I’ve come across, are greatly exaggerated and that the language really isn’t that bad after all (while plenty of work is required no matter what language you take on).

One such thing people will quickly tell you about Japanese to scare you off it, is that it has seventeen million levels of formality, making it, of course, impossible to learn. So Japanese is of course the “hardest language in the world“. Just like all the other ones…

I think not! Using informal language as a learner is quite alright and something I have transitioned into doing myself now, (should have done it sooner) and am glad of it. Let’s hear William’s take on this interesting aspect of Japanese:

“[L]earning the polite form before the dictionary form makes no sense.” – Kim Tae

The above quote comes from Kim Tae’s Complete Guide Japanese Grammar – a fairly popular internet resource and textbook for Japanese grammar that I stumbled upon after I was already about 2 months into learning the language through self-study methods. The above quote comes from his Introduction section, titled: “The problem with conventional textbooks”.

And, I wish I had realized this sooner.

I started off trying to be all polite and learning the formal language – because I was new to Japan and didn’t want to “offend” anybody. I’m a foreigner in a new country, I should be nice, right? I don’t want to be rude.

The truth of the matter is the dictionary form isn’t rude, it’s just informal, fairly casual speak. It’s how friends talk to each other. It’s the conversational language – and probably the most widely spoken form of Japanese. There are ways to be rude in Japanese – well, there are ways to be rude in pretty much every language – but, that comes much more through word choice than than through using the casual, dictionary forms of verbs.

A Quick Background on Politeness Levels of Japanese

One of the reasons why Japanese is often cited as one of the hardest languages to learn for foreigners, is that there are completely different verb forms for formal language, and for informal language. “It’s almost like learning two foreign languages and not just one.” You will hear people say this all of the time.

You can tell when the polite language is being spoken fairly easily, because sentences tend to end be littered with「です」(“desu”),「ます」(“masu”), and「ました」(“mashita”).

It’s a necessary part of the language and culture, but if your goals are to get speaking quickly and to reach conversational level in Japanese, you’re better off skipping it for now and coming back to later.

A More Natural Way to Learn, and Speaking Quickly

Think about it this way: the Japanese don’t start off learning polite language. They start off as children the same way we all do, saying informal things like “mommy” and “daddy” ( ちち “chichi” and はは “haha” in Japanese), etc. Then, they spend most of their lives talking to their friends.

Most foreigners approach Japanese from the textbook method – of speaking very polite. But who is your target audience? Who will you be speaking to?

If your goal is to make friends, you’re going to want to get to casual language with them as soon as possible anyway – so you may as well just start there. Yeah, you won’t be the most polite person in the world, but guess what – nobody will care.

Yeah, that’s right. As an obvious foreigner, you’re going to be making mistakes in the language anyway. Everybody will be able to tell you’re a foreigner and you won’t be fooling anybody into thinking you’re a native speaker early. This is fine – this is necessarily in learning any language, actually – and Benny has talked plenty of times on his blog about the importance of making mistakes in your target language.

And, as a foreigner, learning the language – you basically get a free pass on the formality. Nobody in Japan will expect it from you.

Actually, they may never expect it from you.

One of my roommates in Tokyo has lived in Japan for over 10 years, she’s fluent in the language – JLPT N1 level, and even works a job in marketing where she speaks in Japanese every day at work. She even admits that at work, she’ll sometimes fall into casual speak and casual verb-forms with her boss, because “it’s just what comes out easier.” Nobody at work has ever said anything about it, and she gets away with it all the time.

I also met with a business owner in Tokyo recently who has been in Japan for almost 20 years. He mentioned to me that he was basically fluent in Japanese, but he would like to work on his polite Japanese more – then he added this quip: “even though, I’m a foreigner, so I’ll never really have to. I just feel like I should since I’ve been here for so long now.”

So, if foreigners who speak Japanese and have been in Japan for 10-20 years, doing business, working IN the language everyday – still struggle with the polite forms of verbs due to the fact that they rarely ever have to use them, it begs the question – WHY do most beginners start off learning these forms of the verbs first? Why are most textbooks written in such away that according Kim Tae “makes no sense”?

Beats me.

The Japanese Don’t Even Like Speaking Formally

Pretty much every Japanese friend I’ve met up with never even wanted to talk to me in です」(“desu”),「ます」(“masu”) forms anyway.

For a couple of reasons; they find it hard to speak that way too. It’s mentally taxing for them and they have to speak like that to their boss all week at work, so the last thing they want to do is meet up with me and speak formally when they’re not at work. Also, well… my friends are my friends: they’re close in age to me anyway, so speaking formally to each other would be difficult for them from a cultural standpoint as well – well, it would just be awkward to speak like this with your friends.

So,what I am recommending here is: drop the textbook formality, drop the complexity of polite-forms, focus on the dictionary-forms of the verbs first, speak casually, and make friends. That way, you can start having fun in the language quicker, and not worry so much about being formal and polite, and you might just enjoy the language more and be to go that much further with it.

What are your thoughts on use of formality in Japanese? Let us know in the comments, and be sure to check out William’s site Strategy Focus Success for thoughts on personal projects, building skills, learning, and travelling the world.

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Tagged as: Guest Post, Hacks, Japanese

  • Serge Gorodish

    Sorry, but I disagree with almost everything you say here.

    1. The です/ます level of Japanese is, if anything, easier to learn than the informal style. The informal style has a lot more flavor of “improv”, with word order changes, contractions, things omitted etc. The です/ます level is much more predictable. Think how simple it is to change -ます to -ました instead of the maybe nine different ways of forming the past tense of the plain form.

    2. Ordinary Japanese have absolutely no discomfort in speaking at the です/ます level, which is the normal way any two adults interact who don’t know each other very well. You may be confusing this level with keigo, which is honorific Japanese and an entirely different level of pain. This is indeed a specialized skill.

    It helps a lot to be able to understand keigo (but not necessarily produce it) to function in Japanese society. Wait until you try to make a restaurant reservation on the phone and the person on the other end uses none of your familiar vocabulary, but has a high-flown flowery way of putting absolutely everything, down to asking what your name is. And since they take justifiable pride in being able to do this with high fluency, it all comes at twice normal speed.

    3. This is true: Japanese have very low expectations for foreigners. In fact, if you merely learn to bow appropriately, you will get credit for being extremely polite. This is highly debatable: we should embrace low expectations. You may know people who have lived in Japan for years and “get away” without learning to speak at a normal level of courtesy. You (and they) don’t know what opportunities they may miss out on because the company can’t trust them, for example, to interact with business clients.

    4. Levels of politeness and style are part of what makes Japanese so Japanese. What’s the point of studying a foreign language if you are going to reject the strange and unusual parts?

    5. You may plan on being instant buddies with every bank teller and train conductor you deal with. I’m not so sure they will feel the same way. (Now bar hostesses, on the other hand…) Not to mention your friends may have parents and grand-parents who prefer to be treated courteously.

    • http://www.fluentin3months.com/ Benny Lewis

      Good retorts! Although I think you are exaggerating the “maybe nine different ways of forming the past tense” that aren’t present in formal. Maybe the grammar notes I have are incomplete (I’m only a few weeks in after all), but it doesn’t seem as complex to me as you are making it out to be.

      All other points related to Japanese experiences with foreigners in Japan is something I have zero experience with now, but I’ll let you know if I agree with you or William from my intensive travels next year if I experience enough to decide one way or the other.

      I’m learning all forms (formal and informal) for recognition but opting to use informal way more now, at least with my teachers on Skype, as I’ve found this is how they spoke to me even when I was using the formal initially. Since I’ve focused more on informal (different as it is), I’ve found conversations work much easier, even though the formal is what my textbooks prefer.

      • Serge Gorodish

        Previously I didn’t take the trouble to count, but I was thinking of:

        aru -> atta
        katsu -> katta
        kau -> katta
        kagu -> kaida
        kaku -> kaita
        kamu -> kanda
        erabu -> eranda

        kariru -> karita
        kakeru -> kaketa

        I guess that makes nine, although some would say the last two aren’t really different. And there’s the four “irregular” ones:

        da -> datta
        suru -> shita
        kuru -> kita
        iku -> itta

        Here’s an idea for a post: all the easy things about Japanese: no gender! verbs needn’t agree with subject! no funny (to English speakers, at least) vowel sounds! etc.

        • http://www.fluentin3months.com/ Benny Lewis

          When you say “9 different ways of forming the past tense” that makes it sound like a single word has nine different ways that it can be written. What this actually is are the different bases and their corresponding endings, which is universally applied.

          Note that in formal, you also have to learn that you change to what I’ve read is called base 2. So for instance hanasu has to change to hanashi- (mas/mashta etc.), and Ichidan verbs have to change from taberu to tabe- (mas/mashta etc.)

          I just find it misleading to say that formal is simple and informal has a bunch of complicated endings. You have to learn different endings anyway like oyogu->oyoide, even in formal usage. The irregular ones you gave have a tense with the ‘a’ replaced with an ‘e’ sound for verbs in a series and other uses, which are required in formal too, from what I’ve learned.

          Once again, correct me if I’m wrong, but I really disagree with you that informal is way more complicated than formal.

          Don’t worry, I’ll be writing up my own easy things about Japanese post, but after I’ve passed my 3 months and gotten a chance to use it in Japan! :)

          • Serge Gorodish

            Was not my intention to deceive. You are not wrong about oyogu->oyoide, but getting base 2 is about 100% predictable if you learn the writing system. On the other hand, I’m not getting how the informal language is supposed to be so much simpler than formal. You get to drop ます and です and what else is there?

            I mentioned the irregular verbs for the sake of completeness, not as a criticism of the great nation of Japan. Having only four irregular verbs is terrific whether you’re talking formal or informal.

            I stand by my claim that the informal language (which don’t get me wrong, I love) is more subtle and complicated (even way more subtle and complicated) than the formal. Rules are bent and broken in all kinds of ways, and it takes a lot of experience to learn what works and what doesn’t. (Try looking at a manga and comparing it to what any of your textbooks say.) In formal Japanese, the verb always comes at the end of the sentence–not in informal. Or consider the following pair of sentences:

            Daijoubu ja nai. “It’s all right”

            Daijoubu ja nai. “It’s not all right”

            The only difference is intonation.

            In the formal language you would have:

            Daijoubu desu. “It’s all right”

            Daijoubu dewa arimasen. “It’s not all right.”

            Much easier to keep straight.

          • http://strategyfocussuccess.com/ William Peregoy

            “Rules are bent and broken in all kinds of ways, and it takes a lot of experience to learn what works and what doesn’t.”

            This is true for basically every language. Speaking any language is more art than science.

          • Serge Gorodish

            So your claim is that polite and casual styles are equally difficult, then. Might as well go with polite.

        • languagepotato

          you’re exaggerating:
          there are two verb classes in japanese, there is one with the kariru and kakeru in it, those two verbs (kariru and kakeru) conjugate exactly the same btw, change the -ru in ta

          so those two count just as one
          then there’s another verb class:
          in which verbs ending in the syllable u , tsu or ru change the last syllable in tta, that makes 1 instead of three

          kamu and erabu fall in the same category too, they cange to nda, that makes 1 instead of two
          so 5 in total and that’s the broad way of counting, and also those four irregular verbs you gave? those are the only irregular verbs.

    • JambalayaBob

      There are not that many different ways to form the past tense. PLUS, you only use -masu forms at the very end of sentences, meaning you’re cheating yourself out of being able to make anything other than one-phrase sentences early on. Let me go deeper into this real quick.

      You can’t say “しましています” you have to say ’しています”; the -te form conjugates exactly like the past tense, except with e instead of a. This means that your argument about skipping “difficult” conjugations, because using the -te form before an auxiliary verb is extremely common. It’s used to politely tell people to do things, to say what you’re doing right now, in some cases to say what you have been doing, to ask what someone wants you to do, and the list goes for quite a while.

      Point is, even if you want to speak completely formally, you still need to learn dictionary forms and informal conjugations to be able to express yourself effectively.

    • http://strategyfocussuccess.com/ William Peregoy

      The levels of politeness and style are definitely part of what makes Japanese so Japanese. I definitely agree with you on that. But my point was thus:

      “It’s a necessary part of the language and culture, but if your goals are to get speaking quickly and to reach conversational level in Japanese, you’re better off skipping it for now and coming back to it later.”

      My point wasn’t about “rejecting” politeness because its strange or unusual, but more about skipping over it or skimming past it a bit in the beginning in favor of reaching a conversational level.

      • Serge Gorodish

        And the point is: even if you believe being courteous to people is optional, the burden of learning a couple of polite verb forms is way less than it’s being made out–especially when you take the trade-offs into consideration.

  • Luca Deon

    How are you finding JapanesePod101? Is it good? Great post for Japanese learners.
    GO BENNY!

    • http://www.fluentin3months.com/ Benny Lewis

      So far it’s good, but I’m not recommending or poo-pooing specific resources until the end of the project when I can look back and truly see how much it actually helped.

      For the moment I’m enjoying it, similar to how I did with Chinesepod

      • Sarah Warren

        I had a try at Hebrewpod101, but I’m dubious about continuing with a paid subscription. A couple of times on flash cards, for example, what is being said doesn’t mesh with the verb form on the flash card – I only know because I already have a reasonably good grasp of the script.

        I need to email them and enquire before I pass judgement, but it didn’t fill me with confidence :-/

  • Andrew

    Good Article, I am having similar issues with Cantonese, every once in a while I am told I am “too polite” Mostly because I like to model it after my French which tends to be more formal. Though it has contractions and slang just like all languages.

    • Joshua Warhurst

      But this is a cultural thing too, not just a language thing. Japanese people prefer artificial politeness while Chinese people prefer being very casual. In Japan, foreigners are often thought of as “too rude” while in China foreigners are often thought of as “too polite”, with all their 谢谢s and 请s. I tend to agree with China’s view, but then, China is pretty Western-minded anyways.

  • http://www.janafadness.com Jana Fadness

    “Mommy” and “Daddy” would actually be more accurately translated as ママ (“mama”) and パパ (“papa”). :P The words “haha” and “chichi” are used only to refer to one’s parents in the third person, never to call to them directly. They are also more adult-sounding words that aren’t really used by children.

    As for the general point of this article, I have to say I disagree as well. It sounds to me like the writer is confusing polite language (using “desu” and “masu”) with keigo, which is indeed much more complex. There is no need for learners to bother with keigo at the beginning, but basic polite language is not any more difficult than casual language, and certainly not any less commonly used. It’s true that people will forgive you for speaking too casually if you’re a foreigner and obvious beginner, but why not be polite since it’s so easy? Basically all you have to do is add “desu” or “masu” to the ends of your sentences. Sure, there are a few more subtleties, but the “desu/masu” thing is all a beginner really needs to know to sound appropriately polite.

    (Confusingly, Japanese people do often use the word “keigo” to refer to basic “desu/masu” polite language. But real keigo is the kind of high level honorifics used by business employees to customers and things like that, and it is very different.)

    Also, there are many situations in which the other person will speak to you casually, but it’s actually not appropriate for you to reciprocate with the same kind of language. This includes when the person is several years older than you or is in some sort of social position that’s seen as superior (a teacher, for instance). So you shouldn’t necessarily copy the way another person speaks to you. If the person is around your age or younger, is not in any kind of position of authority, and is not a stranger, it is generally appropriate to reciprocate if that person starts using casual language with you. But when in doubt, it’s always best to use polite language. If the person doesn’t want you to use polite language, they will usually say so.

    • J.Z. Powell

      Thank you! I was horrified when I read that he thinks because his teacher speaks casually, he can do the same! No, your teacher can speak that way because she is YOUR TEACHER. You are her student, you can’t talk to her like that, it’s very rude. I think there’s still a lot of stuff Benny doesn’t understand about Japanese culture, and this is gonna cause him to make mistakes in the language and throw out things that are “seemingly unimportant” but that are actually VITAL to getting any good in Japanese :(

  • Joshua Warhurst

    Some quick points:

    1) Japanese people are very forgiving, especially to learners of Japanese. But don’t mistake this for speaking perfectly.

    Just because your teacher speaks casually to you, -doesn’t- mean you should speak casually back.

    If you prove to Japanese people that you can use polite Japanese, they’ll expect it. So if you learn polite Japanese, keep it a secret. :p It will make your life that much easier. But the reason textbooks use polite Japanese is because they expect you’ll be using it in tandem with a teacher, who you “should” speak politely to.

    2) That said, if you want to master Japanese, use polite Japanese when the situation calls for it. It’s just a habit to get into. Not difficult or “brain-taxing” as some might have you believe. There are even some easy tricks to make everything you say polite (such as adding とおもいます or んです onto the end of any casual Japanese sentence, only slightly altering the meaning).

    3) One thing that does bother me is when others say that Japanese is “a hard” or “the hardest” language (for Westerners) to learn. They’ll cite stupid things like “3 alphabets” or “politeness”. Like Benny and others say, every language has its fair share of easy points too. I happen to think the pronunciation, grammar uniformity, simplicity in making a sentence (does such a thing really exist in Japanese?), as well as the amount of literature out there make Japanese very doable. Even the politeness isn’t bad because it’s -obvious-. It’s a simple grammar construct! English also has politeness, but it has far more to do with subtle elements like word choice. Give me obvious, explainable elements any day of the week!

    I’m reminded of my early days learning Japanese, when I was talking to a friend learning Hebrew. I mentioned how politeness was a pain and his response always stuck in my head: “At least you can watch cartoons and play video games in Japanese. You ever found one of those for Hebrew?”

    I learned to stop thinking Japanese was insurmountable after that.

    • Alice

      “I’m reminded of my early days learning Japanese, when I was talking to a friend learning Hebrew. I mentioned how politeness was a pain and his response always stuck in my head: “At least you can watch cartoons and play video games in Japanese. You ever found one of those for Hebrew?”

      I learned to stop thinking Japanese was insurmountable after that.”

      Thank you, that was a very useful post for a complete beginner such as myself, especially the part I quoted. I’m starting Japanese after doing Korean for a couple of years and, while there is a lot of audio visual material for Korean, I’m loving the wider access to children’s books, posters, vocabulary pocket books etc I can find for Japanese.

  • donghyukyoon

    In my Japanese class, we’ve only learned how to speak with です/ます. We’ve not really gotten into informal informal japanese. Like they teach us to say 行きます not 行く. Hawaii having a ton of Japanese tourists, I always hear desu/masu. So I agree with the others that this person is confusing it for keigo.

  • Johnny Vineyard

    Seems to be a bit of disagreement in the comments. I studied Japanese in college, was a Straight-A student and graduated with the most in-depth language minor offered at my school, ready to dive into Japan and take the JLPT.

    The fact that I couldn’t keep up with anime was something I blamed on the use of slang or colloquialisms. Then I landed in Japan and discovered that I couldn’t understand much of what was being said. We spent two or three weeks going over the casual forms (“informal” almost sounds like “rude”) when I studied it in college, yet that was what people were using around me. I stayed in Japan for a month by myself, and ONCE in all that time did I hear formal Japanese. I knew it instantly because I understood it perfectly–someone was on the phone with a doctor at the hospital. Just one time…

    I wrote a rather strongly-worded email to the head of my Japanese department while still in Japan. She responded with an academic, “Well, we were preparing you for the JLPT.” response. I suppose I’m to blame for thinking that a fluency test should prepare you for actually existing in that country.

    • Joshua Warhurst

      Quick disclaimer: Nobody seems to agree, but I will refer to Japanese as “casual” (おい、なにすんの？), “formal” (あの、なにをしていますか), and “keigo” (すみませんですけれど、なにをなさっているのですか). Hope this clears up any misconceptions in the next few paragraphs.

      I have an easy time believing that even an in-depth language minor couldn’t prepare you for Japan. I’ve met only a few Japanese language students in University that were competent with Japanese, and they were the ones who were watching and reading Japanese daily. I’m sure the same is true with other language courses, or any course for that matter, when the student doesn’t supplement it with real-life experiences. That said, only two-three weeks learning casual speaking? Didn’t it blend into everything else? The amount of uses for “short form” Japanese is staggering. Even the JLPT has casual Japanese. Anywho…

      But I have a very hard time believing you only heard formal Japanese once in the month. Maybe…if you were talking about Keigo. But even then, did you hear no public announcements? Did you watch no TV? Half of my channels right now (I kid you not, I checked all 8…) had formal (not Keigo, mind you) Japanese, whether it was someone on an interview, the news, or baseball. And if you didn’t hear any public announcements nor watch TV, did you not go to any restaurant? One month!? I’ve heard Keigo -today-, never mind the fact I’ve heard formal Japanese countless times.

      And blaming a Japanese class for not preparing you for Japan is like blaming a political science class for not preparing you for the political world. It can get you halfway, and maybe pass some tests, but in the end you need to do a lot of work independently.

      Anyway, I didn’t intend for this to come across as an interrogation, which it now seems like it is. :p All I mean to point out is that formal Japanese is as real as any other type of Japanese.

      • Johnny Vineyard

        The overall point of this blog post is that you should begin speaking the most common form first, which is a sentiment I echoed using my own, albeit anecdotal, experiences. I learned strictly the “formal” form, as you call it and I agree with your naming, but that is not what I was exposed to when I went to Osaka.

        I didn’t go there with a close-minded tourist’s mentality. I went there specifically to throw myself at the language and speak it as much and often as I could. I expected more from the minor I worked so hard for, and I was disappointed. Point is, I will not use textbooks to learn a language again, and I don’t think others should follow the plans textbooks lay out, either, IF your goal is conversation.

        Currently, I write ESL textbooks for a living, and I’m equally frustrated with the practically-universal lesson scheme that ESL books use to teach English. It’s not practical and takes too long to foster a good relationship with casual conversation.

        As a side note, I learned more Korean in the first 3 months when I moved here than Japanese in 5 years learning in school, all because I did it my own way and still ignore the “formal” forms save only for recognition.

        • Joshua Warhurst

          Heh, fair enough! I’m only going off my own experiences as well. I’ve never been to Osaka (which I hear is crazier and more rude than typical Japan :p). I think I’ll have to agree with you on the structure of many textbooks, which though having utility, have not reached the point of perfect transition to “real” language.

          I’m actually really curious about your techniques! How would you go about writing a textbook to “foster a good relationship with casual conversation”? :o I’ve always believed in a classroom being able to create that, but not necessarily a textbook by itself.

          • Johnny Vineyard

            It’s definitely up to the teacher to create the right environment. However, most ESL teachers I’ve met aren’t passionate about language, so they just follow the textbook. When I taught ESL before writing books for other teachers, I went out of my way to find hidden lessons in the books. Actually, my company makes me present on that very subject for every new batch of teachers. Concepts like: someone, something, somewhere, anywhere, etc. Those are avoided in many books because it’s too “difficult”, but I’ve never had any trouble explaining it using the pictures that are already in our books, and students pick it up really quickly and use it often and extremely well. Learning how to “fill” conversations is far more important than remembering that you were in the “aquarium”. “Somewhere with fish” is just as good.

            I also think there’s way too much emphasis on talking about the “external” self instead of the “internal” self. Within a couple of weeks, I knew how to say, “I’m hungry.” “I’m sleepy.” “I’m bored.” and “I hate this.” in Korean just from listening to my students complain about everything. So, I teach them those phrases in English so we can complain together.

            When was the last time I had a casual conversation about the zoo? Basically, ESL books are all focused on nonessential vocabulary and teach really formatted conversation styles that rarely cross over into real life. Soon as the conversation goes off-book, the students are completely lost and freeze up. I teach them to read the mood and use body language cues to keep the conversation going, or to ask questions like, “Is that a good thing?” if they aren’t sure what, “I’m hangin’ in there.” means.

      • travellemmingrun

        Perhaps more people should “blame” their language classes for not preparing them for the country they intend to speak in, and a different approach will be cultivated!

      • WatchingFromOverThere

        すみませんですけれども？ I think you need to go back to your textbook and learn why that’s grammatically incorrect. Tryすみませんが.

        • Joshua Warhurst

          Grammatically incorrect, but still something that you can hear and say. Admittedly, I look back on this and agree it’s neither really keigo or grammatical, and that すみませんが is more grammatically correct, but just because it’s not standard doesn’t mean that it’s wrong.

          If someone says “No can do.” in English, it certainly looks completely grammatically wrong, but I guarantee it’s something that can be used in professional environments without mockery.

  • goulo

    This reminds me of the sort of similar ambiguity/confusion with using the “informal/casual” 2nd person pronoun or the “formal/polite” 3rd person titles in Polish and other Slavic languages. It’s very frustrating in some situations not knowing how to simply say “you” to somebody without risking offending them or making them think you’re a stuffy overly formal person… In this regard, languages like English & Esperanto which simply always use the 2nd person pronoun when referring to the person you’re talking to are much nicer. :)

    • Sarah Warren

      Having learned Russian, I feel your pain. That said, I personally rather like some of the subtleties that are absent from English.

  • http://www.japaneseruleof7.com/ Ken Seeroi

    Hah, very funny. Benny, you know you can accomplish the same thing in Japan by . . . just speaking English. Everybody expects you to, you’ll make loads of friends, and Japanese folks will be pleased as punch. I tell you this as someone who’s lived in Japan for many years and speaks Japanese fluently.

    You can have a conversation here immediately simply by tapping into the thousands of English words that every Japanese person knows. From “Hot,” “cold,” “red,” and “white” to “sandwich” and “orange juice” . . . we’ve got them all. If communication is your goal, there’s no reason to wait three months. You can do that better today in English than you will in 3 months using Japanese. I guarantee it.

    But if you want to learn Japanese, well, okay. But that’s not just something you cooked up yourself that gets the point across. “I go bye bye now.” Yeah, that real impressive.

    You well know that speaking is the easy part of the language. It’s being able to understand what’s being said that’s hard (and what constitutes fluency). So when someone speaks politely by saying, 「ここでお召し上がりですか」 (and they will, a lot), you can reply with something other than “Sorry, me don’t understand.”

    • Kenny Diedrich

      Benny’s whole thing IS learning the language, and from every other mission he does, he learns it well. Yes, communication is his goal, but he wants to communicate IN Japanese. That’s what this whole blog is about. I’m certain he could have spoken English in almost every single country he’s been to, and someone there would have understood him, but that would defeat the purpose these missions. I personally don’t speak Japanese (it’s on my list right after Spanish, which I’m currently learning), but I’m certain that he will be able to communicate with more people in Japan in Japanese than he will in English.

      • http://www.japaneseruleof7.com/ Ken Seeroi

        And my whole point is that learning the language includes learning “polite” Japanese. You don’t just dismiss half the language because it’s inconvenient. Well actually, apparently you can, so I guess anything’s possible. Make up your own language. That’s easier and more fun anyway.

        I’m saying that what he’s calling “formal” language is really “standard” language. In English, we have casual language too. And there’s a time to use it, and a time not to. You don’t start off speaking it with the bus driver, the elderly lady at the bakery, or people you don’t yet know. To do so would sound bizarre. “Yo, whyn’t you hand me a couple of them cupcakes.” “You mean this ain’t the bus to the museum? Open the door, I’m so outta here.” You feeling me on this, my homie?

        So either speak the language or do not. Yoda said that, I’m pretty sure.

        • Kenny Diedrich

          I’m sure that he will get around to it eventually. I personally cannot attest to how easy or difficult the formal part of Japanese is, so I can’t say whether or not it is better to start learning using the casual form of language. I do agree with you, formality is part of Japanese, and every language, really (by the way, your comment made me chuckle). I originally replied to your comment because it seemed that you didn’t understand why Benny doesn’t simply speak English.

          Again, just speculation, but I think that for Benny’s (current) purpose, which is to meet people and communicate, it is perfectly fine for him to use casual language. As the article states, he will look foreign and people will not expect him to know Japanese period, so I feel that they will be more impressed that he is speaking at all and less offended that he isn’t using the appropriate amount of politeness.

          Also, I feel like I’m picking up a sarcastic or argumentative tone from your text. Maybe that’s just your style of writing, and I realize emotions are difficult to pick up through the Internet, so I could be wrong. I didn’t mean my comment as hostile, simply explanatory.

          As an aside, I took a look at your blog. I like a lot of your posts and think that your stories are funny. :)

          • http://www.japaneseruleof7.com/ Ken Seeroi

            First of all, thanks for reading my site. I appreciate that, really.

            Yeah I know my writing can be a bit pointy at times, but it’s all in good fun. I’m actually a big fan of Benny’s, and excited that he finally got around to Japanese. So my apologies if I’m in any way offensive. I’ll try to use more polite language next time.

            The thing is, yes, you can speed up the process of learning language by omitting polite speech. You can do the same in any language. Think how much easier it would be without having to memorize all the phrases like “please,” “excuse me,” and “do you mind if . . ” All those “pardon me”s and “thank you”s–you don’t really need them.

            I know we’re all like, Oh teachers and textbooks–that’s so 2011, but consider that maybe there’s a reason why people experienced in Japanese are insistent on using polite language. Because it’s what you need the most when you’re in a foreign country, meeting people for the first time. All those polite ways of speaking–they’re the very first things you want to learn. I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss them.

            But then I probably should brush up on that myself, in English. Guess the pot shouldn’t call the kettle black. Again, my apologies.

          • Kenny Diedrich

            No problem. Thanks for the apology. It’s quite the rarity on the Internet nowadays to see people come to an agreement using civilized language rather than hurling insults. :)

            I think I’ve shifted my stance a little now. I don’t see why one couldn’t learn both casual language and formality in tandem. It’s almost certainly different in Japanese, but in Spanish we learn the casual “you” (tú) and the formal “you” (usted) at the same time, along with their verb forms and appropriate times to use them. I think that a healthy mix of both styles of speaking is optimal. While it’s important not to begin a conversation with someone by starting off on the wrong foot, it’s equally important to be able to transition to an informal speaking manner.

            This little comment train was fun. Thanks for your quick replies, and good luck with your future language learning endeavors!

  • Tore Eriksson

    Agree: Skipping the formal in the beginning is a good idea (did it myself). In informal language you have all important patterns, and formal language is just another infix. Also, the -ます form is only added at the end – even speaking formally you can construct very long sentences using mostly informal verbs. Cf relative clauses: 日本に到着した日.

    Disagree: Don’t kid yourself – you are being impolite! Teenager, student might be alright, but as an middle aged adult you just sound silly. I warned my seniors that I would only speak impolitely in the beginning and asked for their understanding. Six months later I switched to polite language when appropriate. I hate to be rude, but using Japanese for 20 years in a business setting without knowing polite speech is ridiculous. No Japanese would tell you this to your face though, but don’t kid yourself – you are being lazy.

    Final tip: Speak informally, and when necessary just add んです when you are finished speaking.

  • Alasdair Morgan

    It’s so easy to learn the “masu/mashita” form of verbs in Japanese, so why wouldn’t you?

    All Japanese verbs basically fall into two categories for conjugation (aside from suru and kuru), so why avoid the *little bit* of extra effort it takes to be sufficiently polite to address *every single person* in Japan? Sorry, but that’s just sheer laziness.

  • Tzadeck

    It’s worth pointing out that there’s more than one type of politeness in Japanese. です, ます, and that kind of thing are distal polite, meaning that they’re about establishing distance between you and the other person. So, whether you use it is about being casual or not.

    There’s also honorific words and humble words, about raising people above you or lowering yourself. You’ve surely already encountered this, probably without really knowing it. For example, ください is a humble word, and you’ll notice that the kanji is literally ‘down,’ 下さい, showing that the higher person is lowering the thing down to you. Or, another humble phrase is おねがいします. O+(masu stem)+suru is a humble form. The verb here is ねがう, which is changed to its stem ねがい, and all together becomes おねがいします when the する is put in ます form.

    And of course, it’s a bit more complicated than even just these three types of politeness.

  • travellemmingrun

    My gosh, people do get passionate about putting people off learning Asian languages, don’t they?? I wonder if seeing somebody attempting to learn a language they have learned over years in only 3 months is threatening.

    Most people don’t try to learn a language in 3 months, and from the comments I’ve read here, it sounds like the current methods (i.e. learning formal first) perhaps aren’t the best way to express-learn Japanese. I personally studied Japanese for 5 years and am very interested in how Benny goes using a less traditional approach to learning the language – he may have just found the quickest way – why don’t we all just wait and see!

    P.s. For anybody who’s read about Benny’s approach to languages, I think it’s pretty obvious he is considering this angle as a method to get him to conversational level as quickly as possible. I’m sure he’ll then weigh up the necessity / worthiness of learning more formal language from that point – I don’t think Benny is suggesting at this stage that he wouldn’t learn it altogether…

  • Kevin Iga

    I don’t see what the fuss is about. The formal (です／ます) form is easy to learn. The informal (ーる／ーて／ーた) form is not quite as easy but is still very doable. It is still way easier than verb forms for most European languages like Spanish or German, for instance. So from the point of view of ease, I don’t see much of a reason to prefer one over the other.

    As others are pointing out, there are situations for formal and situations for informal (very roughly corresponding to the tu/vous distinction for “you” in many European languages). For this reason, it’s good to learn both eventually. But you shouldn’t think “Oh, I only know formal (or informal); I can’t speak Japanese yet.” Go ahead and speak Japanese with what you know. They won’t be offended since they know you’re a beginner. Eventually your hearing the other form will motivate you to learn the other, and will give you a sense for when each form is used.

    So I don’t think it makes much of a difference which one you start with. If you want to learn the language, you will eventually learn the other form.

    It is true that friendly one-on-one skype calls with other young people in their 20s lends itself to an informal environment, while ordering in a restaurant tends to be formal, for instance. So whichever environment you find yourself speaking in first, let that determine which form you start with. If you feel like it.

  • Emma Janusz

    The thing that surprised me most about this post is apparently Japanese is a really difficult language? I’d say Japanese was probably the easiest language I’ve learned (in terms of speaking, writing is another story) because the grammar to me was relatively simple. Like English, there are no declinations of nouns depending on who’s doing what, there are no der/die/das tables to learn (as there is no ‘the’ or ‘a’), verbs don’t need to be conjugated… The only thing that I remember hating about Japanese and finding needlessly complicated was the counter system (eg one/two/three long thin objects, one/two/three small animals and one/two/three books all use different counters that you just have to remember) which I kinda got around by using the ‘general counter’ as my teacher called it.

  • Sean Olejar

    Polite and dictionary Japanese aren’t mutually exclusive. It literally should take no more than 2-4 weeks to work through Tae Kim’s grammar guide and have a working knowledge of how to express both levels of formality. For that matter, just like polite Japanese is “unnecessary” as a foreigner, so is learning Japanese to begin with. Japan is one of the best-equipped countries in the world for English speakers who don’t speak the country’s native language and anybody could happily get by without studying a wink of Japanese. But that’s not the point right? The point isn’t to just get by, it’s to be able to operate on a more intimate, genuine level of understanding with the natives of the country through the lens of their mother tongue. In that vein, nobody should just be content to wallow in the low expectations of westerners as “stupid foreigners who aren’t interested in/capable of assimilation”.

    • Medryn

      That’s one mentality that sure isn’t working in America. There’s places here in the states that cater more to Spanish/Russian/French, etc speakers than they do for English, even when it comes to government programs.

      Living in S. Florida there are entire towns such as Aventura where they will refuse to even speak to you in English, so much for ordering that Cinnabon at the mall I wanted… Also in Spokane, WA I went to apply for a government program that involved home mortgages and the entire office was ran in Russian because 90% of the applicants were Russians. I could use English there but they treated it as the secondary language in conversation as well as the signs and forms, much like they do here in Texas where I’m at now within the school system. It’s rare to walk into any one of my kids 3 schools and hear English being spoken by any of the staff. They run the entire system and programs with Spanish to cater to the Spanish only speakers.

      I’ve also been in states that border Canada that put a much greater emphasis on knowing French than English, but at least they can work with you in both.

      The problem is here in America if you ever take the approach that English is dominant and foreigners should learn and “assimilate” themselves to it when moving here you then become ostracized in the types of areas I’ve referred to and people really do get mad.

      To suggest that speaking English as an American citizen is critically important, more so than a foreign language, is something people take very offensively these days, so I can understand how Americans with that perspective may also come across badly in other foreign countries where they actually do expect you to learn the language, take it seriously, and agree that in doing so you should be conforming to their culture instead of expecting their culture to conform to you. What really gets me is that it has become such a poorly addressed situation here that even our illegal aliens have this attitude, that we should be conforming to them and their desires.

      So for those in Japan or planning to be, although most Japanese are polite and understanding, please don’t take advantage of that and try to support and adapt to their culture instead of expecting it the other way around.

  • Jim Stevens

    I’m a fluent Japanese speaker and have been for the past 10 years.
    Although I agree you shouldn’t let politeness stop you from studying Japanese,
    I think many of the comments here point out some of the factual errors you may
    have made in your post.

    One thing to add to this discussion however, is that the word English ‘polite’
    doesn’t really capture the full range of what is happening in the Japanese
    language. I think Westerners have a kind of aversion to politeness these
    days, as they see it as some kind of unnecessary formality which is
    undemocratic or even pretentious.

    With Japanese I assure you that’s not the case. The polite verb forms or
    polite words in Japanese were not arbitrarily chosen, they actually sound
    better – or to be more accurate perhaps softer or gentler than non-polite words
    and forms. I think sometimes this difference is so apparent that I could
    ask a non-Japanese person which form they think is polite and they could
    probably guess the correctly.

    Also using polite forms properly isn’t something you do for yourself, it’s
    shows respect to the person you are speaking to and gives them a good
    impression of you. The deepest friendships in Japan
    start with people using the polite forms with one another, and I think
    there is something to be said about that. So if you are studying Japanese
    certainly don’t be discouraged by mistakes in politeness, they will of course
    be forgiven, but nevertheless make the effort and you’ll be rewarded in kind.

  • Jay@TravelIdeaz

    I know a few basic words in Japanese but that’s about it. Good thing to know that you can still communicate in Japanese without having to be too technical. :)

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  • Lord Fish

    Having studied Japanese with textbooks for years, I have to agree that it would have been better to learn casual, informal Japanese first. You can study formal Japanese until you are blue in the face, just understand that when you are out and about in Tokyo you won’t understand a word the natives are saying amongst themselves.